Jocks

[Keeper]

sportsbuck2745 said:

So I guess the American Medical Association and the Educational Testing Service and College Board Study are biased as well? (Both sources named in the report)

This is where you're not grasping what I'm stating. I'm stating that obviously the evidence displayed on the site is going to say that student-athletes perform better, that's the whole intent of the site. I'd rather see full on evaluations. But even still, outside research into this stuff isn't going to detect the scenarios in which numbers are bumped. To state that someone playing a sport is probably smarter is a false statement; it simply has nothing to do that is tied to school ability, and these statistics that are present about average GPA's and other such data, are including students who are at disadvantages that are out of their control, so of course they are going to score far lower in these standardized exams that are a poor representation of our education system, and as a result lower the average GPA's.

You've tried to turn this discussion into your moot point argument over the smarts of student-athletes, and have succeeded at derailing discussion about the initial topic. If you'd address my recap post, then maybe this could go somewhere.

[Freak93]

msuspartan2 said:

Freak, you wouldn't answer this in the other thread, so you said ask here but I'm looking to get your response and many others...

Why should jocks change who they are just because you people don't like them?

If arrogance and just being a dick in general where something they couldn't change, I wouldn't mind. The reality of it though is that it can be changed. These things aren't who they are, it is just how they act.

[Sportsbuck]

If you would read the last page where I addressed your recap post, then maybe it'd go somewhere..

I never stated that athletes were smarter than non-athletes. I stated that they had higher GPA's than non-athletes.. which is backed up by the studies. How do you know that there aren't athletes out there with learning disabilities that could be lowering the GPA of their category as well? I mean, seriously if we were to debate this to no end we'd have to research every student in the country and see if they had learning disabilities or not.. which I have no interest in. But by all means, if you want to, go ahead..

[cooljayhu]

Yeah buck you say that athletes have higher GPAs then non-athletes isn't that just proving our point about favoritism to athletics? Plus you need to look at the classes these kids are taking. I definitely would have a higher GPA if I was in say Native Studies or General Studies rather than Engineering.

I consider myself to be in an incredibly unbiased postion here cause I belong to "both worlds". I am pretty smart (or at least I can fake it) and I also am an athlete. Believe me grade-tampering, fixing, favortism or whatever other fancy word for cheating you can come up with happens and it happens more then you would like to admit cause although I am not trying to make accusations you seem like the type of guy that take that kinda free pass readily.

[Keeper]

sportsbuck2745 said:

Well, considering I am grouped with the jocks, shouldn't I be on the defensive? If there was a similar discussion on atheists, wouldn't you be on the defensive as well? (Not meant to insult at all)

A high percentage of people on here are athletes. No one labeled you a jock. A discussion about atheism is an entirely different thing.

So, my posts about athletes having higher GPA's than non-athletes wasn't true? I guess those studies I found that back that up must be false, as well.

We've already stated why this information is not an accurate, true depiction of what the initial discussion revolved around, several times.

Oh, really? Would like you to take that second argument to the professors and coaches and others that have studied that and put a budget on that study?

I would love to. I'd love to hear how a student athlete has more pressure than a kid who works from 3 - 9 PM to help support his family every night, I'd love to hear how he's under less pressure. I'd love to hear how kids involved in high level band groups, trying to get into very difficult schools, constantly tied up in rehearsals, are under less pressure to keep their grades up. I'd love to hear how the kid who has never faired well in school, but really wants to get his high school diploma, so that he can get a little better pay when he's forced to fend for himself in the job world, I'd love to hear how he's not under as much pressure. I'd love to hear how kids dealing with manic depression and anxiety, kids who are having a hard enough time controlling their own lives, let alone keeping up their performance in school, I'd love to hear how those kids have less pressure to keep their grades up.

Some people are just like that. They won't change, and they see maybe one or two upperclassmen do it, and they cling to that like a liferaft.. Those are the jocks that don't go anywhere after HS, and make up maybe 5% at most of the athlete population. So, do you want to judge the millions of athletes around the country based on the actions of 5% of them? (I'm just making up the 5% as a stat, I dunno if it's true, would be impossible to figure out anyway)

None of us are so naive to think that there are a small amount of these guys out there.

[Keeper]

sportsbuck2745 said:

If you would read the last page where I addressed your recap post, then maybe it'd go somewhere..

I never stated that athletes were smarter than non-athletes. I stated that they had higher GPA's than non-athletes.. which is backed up by the studies. How do you know that there aren't athletes out there with learning disabilities that could be lowering the GPA of their category as well? I mean, seriously if we were to debate this to no end we'd have to research every student in the country and see if they had learning disabilities or not.. which I have no interest in. But by all means, if you want to, go ahead..

Athletes with learning disabilities are not going to show up in this, this is exactly what we're saying. They're going to either get their grades bumped to maintain eligibility, or be off the team.

[Sportsbuck]

freak93 said:

msuspartan2 said:

Freak, you wouldn't answer this in the other thread, so you said ask here but I'm looking to get your response and many others...

Why should jocks change who they are just because you people don't like them?

If arrogance and just being a dick in general where something they couldn't change, I wouldn't mind. The reality of it though is that it can be changed. These things aren't who they are, it is just how they act.

Arrogance is something I cannot michiganing stand. I mean, I was probably the best player on our JV team this year, scored the most TD's, yet I barely ever bragged about it or anything. I'd score a TD, flip the ball to the ref, then jog back to the bench. Then you've got our RB who scores, flips the ball to the ref, does the icky shuffle or some gay imitation of it, comes back to the bench and brags about it for another week..

Shit like that pisses me off.

[Sportsbuck]

cooljayhu said:

Yeah buck you say that athletes have higher GPAs then non-athletes isn't that just proving our point about favoritism to athletics? Plus you need to look at the classes these kids are taking. I definitely would have a higher GPA if I was in say Native Studies or General Studies rather than Engineering.

I consider myself to be in an incredibly unbiased postion here cause I belong to "both worlds". I am pretty smart (or at least I can fake it) and I also am an athlete. Believe me grade-tampering, fixing, favortism or whatever other fancy word for cheating you can come up with happens and it happens more then you would like to admit cause although I am not trying to make accusations you seem like the type of guy that take that kinda free pass readily.

FWIW Cooljay..

Closely tied to the GPA is the selection of academic majors. Critics might suggest that athletes' GPA's are high because they enroll in easier academic degree programs, therefore, taking easier classes than their peers. To discover whether this was true, Jones (1995-96) also studied the majors and colleges of the athletes. Results were tabulated and percentages were then used to compare college selection of athlets to non-athletes. The study showed that the student athletes were not selecting what were perceived as easier majors than the general student body. The research has suggested that co-curricular involvement helps create better students. Since the majority of co-curricular participants are involved in athletics, it is encouraging to find that athletic participation does result in higher grade point averages.

I realize it does happen.. but I don't know what frequency we're talking about here.

[Keeper]

You do realize that all your data your picking up, is once again irrelevant? A very specific group of athletes was the focus of this discussion, and now you've opened it up to all athletes. Guess what, people who compete in sports such as: Rowing, Fencing, Swimming, Running, Skiing, Field Softball, Volleyball, and numerous others, they are all taking hard majors, because they know they won't be doing that for their career. It is an extra-activity, not a priority.

[cooljayhu]

Where is that from though? Could it be a researcher trying to disprove opinions of the public about athletes? If it is then those results are horribly skewed. Also regardless of major or whatever I know alot of football players who take lighter academic loads as well. For instance rather than taking say 6 classes a semester they take 3 so that they can "focus on football"... yah bullshit. If I took 3 classes a semester (rather than my 6 lectures, 5 3-hour labs, and 1 2-hour lab) I would have a much higher GPA to.

[Freak93]

sportsbuck2745 said:

freak93 said:

If arrogance and just being a dick in general where something they couldn't change, I wouldn't mind. The reality of it though is that it can be changed. These things aren't who they are, it is just how they act.

Arrogance is something I cannot michiganing stand. I mean, I was probably the best player on our JV team this year, scored the most TD's, yet I barely ever bragged about it or anything. I'd score a TD, flip the ball to the ref, then jog back to the bench. Then you've got our RB who scores, flips the ball to the ref, does the icky shuffle or some gay imitation of it, comes back to the bench and brags about it for another week..

Shit like that pisses me off.

You have that right. The worst part is when it comes off the field and into every day life. That is what I hate even more. They walk around school like assholes, then have these weak students pampering their ego hoping maybe that they can hop on the popularity train to make up for their dull lives.

[cooljayhu]

Aren't you that kid trying to ride the popularity train though freak. Riding it all night long.

Yeah for comic relief now back to the seriousness.

[Sportsbuck]

keepereusc said:

A high percentage of people on here are athletes. No one labeled you a jock. A discussion about atheism is an entirely different thing.

I realize I wasn't labeled as one by you fellas, but that is what I am generally labeled as because I am a football player and so are most of my dude friends.. People at my school expect me and my dude friends to be arrogant, cocky, assholes who consider themselves better than everybody.. but we don't.

We've already stated why this information is not an accurate, true depiction of what the initial discussion revolved around, several times.

I love how my argument is thrown out the window automatically when I provide statistics and studies, yet what you say pages ago about athletes taking easier classes without providing any proof still stands..

I would love to. I'd love to hear how a student athlete has more pressure than a kid who works from 3 - 9 PM to help support his family every night, I'd love to hear how he's under less pressure. I'd love to hear how kids involved in high level band groups, trying to get into very difficult schools, constantly tied up in rehearsals, are under less pressure to keep their grades up. I'd love to hear how the kid who has never faired well in school, but really wants to get his high school diploma, so that he can get a little better pay when he's forced to fend for himself in the job world, I'd love to hear how he's not under as much pressure. I'd love to hear how kids dealing with manic depression and anxiety, kids who are having a hard enough time controlling their own lives, let alone keeping up their performance in school, I'd love to hear how those kids have less pressure to keep their grades up.

Yeah, you are going to find kids like that. No doubt. But in a high school class of around 600, how many people like that are there?

For a lot of athletes, the only way to get to college and the only way to get out of where they are is a college scholarship. Most of these athletes are their families only way out as well, and they have so much pressure on them to succeed.. not to mention the pressure from coaches and the town. You do good, your a hero. You do bad, screw up, etc., and your treated like shit. Hell, our quarterback this year threw an incompletion to lose a playoff game, and came home to find his house egged, and a broken window on his car.

None of us are so naive to think that there are a small amount of these guys out there.

Oh really? So you just assume that athletes are assholes until proven wrong? Because most athletes aren't arrogant assholes.

[cooljayhu]

so your saying that the people at your school want you to treat them like shit? That has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said.

and the reason your stats dont hold up is cause they help you in your fight

[Freak93]

To be honest Sportsbuck, your statistics and studies were skewed because they were comprised by the head football coach trying to keep his program around.

[Keeper]

I have a lot to say on that last post, but I've got to finish up my AP World paper, give me a little while to weigh in.

[Keeper]

sportsbuck2745 said:

I realize I wasn't labeled as one by you fellas, but that is what I am generally labeled as because I am a football player and so are most of my dude friends.. People at my school expect me and my dude friends to be arrogant, cocky, assholes who consider themselves better than everybody.. but we don't.

Once again, no one has stated that football players must be jocks, and therefore we must perceive them as assholes. That is a jump to a conclusion. People anticipate these styles of behavior, because it is exhibited quite frequently amongst these types of athletes.

I love how my argument is thrown out the window automatically when I provide statistics and studies, yet what you say pages ago about athletes taking easier classes without providing any proof still stands..

We have stated why your evidence is both unreliable and also irrelevant to the discussion at hand. My evidence has largely been off the common sense nature. It's the things that when I talk to guidance counselors, they don't want to agree with, but they do. We want to perceive that course selection is fine, and that kids are challenging themselves as much as possible, but from the conversations I have had with numerous people on this issue as I have been pushing for a weighted GPA system at our high school, is that a lot of students, including a fair deal of athletes, choose to take the easier route when it comes to these courses. Again though, this is a discussion that has stemmed from the off-topic argument.

Yeah, you are going to find kids like that. No doubt. But in a high school class of around 600, how many people like that are there?

For a lot of athletes, the only way to get to college and the only way to get out of where they are is a college scholarship. Most of these athletes are their families only way out as well, and they have so much pressure on them to succeed.. not to mention the pressure from coaches and the town. You do good, your a hero. You do bad, screw up, etc., and your treated like shit. Hell, our quarterback this year threw an incompletion to lose a playoff game, and came home to find his house egged, and a broken window on his car.

There are a TON of them. It is something that so many people are ignorant to, because they don't get to know people outside of their little group. This past week, I had someone tell me that they found out their mom spent their entire college education fund to fuel her oxycontin addiction. There are so many people who face difficulties and outside stress on their school performance that far surpasses the pressure of remaining academically eligible.

Again this is off of our topic, but I'll address it none the less. I do not buy the idea that a ton of these athletes are relying on sports to get them into college. I think it is foolish for that to be the case, the most important thing about getting into college is maintaining your studies.

The whole hero/villain thing is ridiculous. You choose to participate in a sport, you know that people get emotional over such things. You have to deal with those things, you know it comes with the territory. By signing up for the team, you're agreeing to all of that. This pressure is nothing compared to real life-situation pressure that students face all the time.

Oh really? So you just assume that athletes are assholes until proven wrong? Because most athletes aren't arrogant assholes.

I have directly stated something entirely opposite to this several times in my past few posts. You made it sounds like there are an incredibly small amount of "true jocks". I have eyes and ears, everyone else does too. You've become indifferent to their behavior, because likely they're your friends and you spend a ton of time around them, and thus only the worst really bother you. I think most anyone else can see that when we are discussing jocks, we're not talking about a couple of kids in a class, we're talking about a fairly large amount of people who behave as such.

Please take TJFOR3 as an example. We're very different people in regular life. He's a three-sport athlete, who I think it would be fair to say that he spends most of his time hanging out with the athlete/jock crowd. I would never label him as a jock by these standards, because he does not subscribe to this mindset. But there are many, many others in our class who I certainly would throw right into that classification.

[cooljayhu]

in terms of the whole depending on sports thing, they only think they have to rely on sports because why strive to achieve academis success when the lure of money from the NFL is in front of you. This hallucination is only fueled by administration who facilitate cheating basically. They're telling this kids they're not smart enough cause they need this help so the can focus on football and on getting to the pros.

[JackTheRipper]

Listen Sportsbuck, the simple fact is that no one can really 'prove' how many athletes receive special treatment because if there were solid numbers, as keeper stated, there would be plenty of scandals. And the "michiganing" in place of the f-word might be the gayest thing I've ever heard.

[JacktheRipper]

sportsbuck2745 said:

So I guess the American Medical Association and the Educational Testing Service and College Board Study are biased as well? (Both sources named in the report)

That wasn't a report, that was a bunch of quotes gathered to support their case. Hell, they could take "There is no evidence to support the claim that athletes make better grades than non-athletes," and turn it into "Athletes make better grades than non athletes." If you are going to cite something as a report, I would like to see their statistics and have at least some idea of how they got them. That was not a report man, just a page of quotes.

You and Sparty are way too defensive about this stuff.