Universal Health Care

[cooljayhu]

I once again will reiterate my point more innocent Iraqs died because of this war than would have died if there was no war. No mentioning the thousands of americans, canadians, and others who died fighting for a cause there was not our own. It wouldn't matter if we left right now or in 100 years they will continue to kill each other regardless.

[JacktheRipper]

cooljayhu said:

I once again will reiterate my point more innocent Iraqs died because of this war than would have died if there was no war. No mentioning the thousands of americans, canadians, and others who died fighting for a cause there was not our own. It wouldn't matter if we left right now or in 100 years they will continue to kill each other regardless.

That's a moot point IMO. I think everyone agrees that we shouldn't have gone (well most rational people) but what we should do now is what matters.

[cooljayhu]

thats what I am saying we should pull out now and save the lives of hundreds if not thousands of soldiers because at this point there efforts over there are futile. They're just gonna go back to killing each other so we should just get outta there

[Freak93]

msuspartan2 said:

cooljayhu said:

spartan I doubt it would be a big secret if anybody (including Canadians) were helping in darfur.

I wasn't necessarily talking about the government. I was talking about schools and companies all across my state. Pretty much everywhere I go in my town and surrounding areas, there are a bunch of Darfur donation boxes, especially at my school.

Well my orignal post was regarding the government. Schools and companies really won't even put a dent in the problem. Honestly, how much does a high school of spoiled and ignorant children really put in for those subject to genocide?

[cooljayhu]

yeah the us should pull out of Iraq and do (along with other UN members) a peaceMAKING not peaceKEEPING mission to darfur to help the victims of those atrocities

[JacktheRipper]

cooljayhu said:

thats what I am saying we should pull out now and save the lives of hundreds if not thousands of soldiers because at this point there efforts over there are futile. They're just gonna go back to killing each other so we should just get outta there

More will die if we pull out now, the Civil War there will be very bloody. Not to mention, we'll be back there in 20 years anyway. If we leave or not, American troops will be back there dealing with Iran. It's just the nature of the beast, and you're naive if you think otherwise.

Oh and the situation in Darfur, while tragic is not something we need to get invovled with (much like Iraq was). Do you really want another situation like Iraq? Genocide would stop this is true, but it'd still be a giant mess...

[Keeper]

msuspartan2 said:

keepereusc said:

No they are not happy we are there. Since at least 2004 Iraqis have been overwhelmingly in support of immediate U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq.

Keep thinking that. It's not like we built schools over there and got rid of one of the world's most horrible leaders or anything.

Iraqis are more than happy that we came to their aide in removing a terrible dictator. They are just not pleased that they've been occupied ever since.

[Bearsbacker]

I can't stand the idea of nationalized health care. As a med student going into the field, knowing that this policy going into effect would cut my pay significantly is reason enough to not like it. I will say though that our current system does need modifications. When an operation costs 10-20x as much here as it does elsewhere in the world, there is a problem ... I had surgery in December to remove a large kidney stone. That surgery cost $19,000. Total costs involved for that little bastard totaled well over $25,000. That's absurd ... so I'm not against a reform, but not a complete overhaul ... our current tax system on the other hand is another story.

I went to the ER a couple of weeks ago because my father in law was having some extreme pain. We walk in and the place was packed out. My father in law was suffering from an impacted bowel, which hurts like hell and was not able to be diagnosed until 4 hours later. In front of him was a long line of sniffles and headaches, none of which were declared emergency situations but because they were there first, they were priority. Behind him came a broken ankle, broken finger, and a young girl suffering an asthma attack. They all had to wait for this line of sniffles to pass.

You pass a policy of nationalized health care and that line grows and the quality of health care will suffer.

If it were to ever fall into place, then people need to continue to have an option. People who choose to should have the option of paying out of pocket for higher quality medical care. Should someone not want to go to a hospital ER, they should have that option.

I'm a firm believer in the theory of social darwinism, and I don't believe there is anything that can be done to make that go away. The classes separate like oil and water. Those who can afford should not have to suffer for those who can't and that's the long and short of it.

[dkgojackets]

Anarchocapitalism fixes everything.

[cooljayhu]

buffsbacker said:

I can't stand the idea of nationalized health care. As a med student going into the field, knowing that this policy going into effect would cut my pay significantly is reason enough to not like it. I will say though that our current system does need modifications. When an operation costs 10-20x as much here as it does elsewhere in the world, there is a problem ... I had surgery in December to remove a large kidney stone. That surgery cost $19,000. Total costs involved for that little bastard totaled well over $25,000. That's absurd ... so I'm not against a reform, but not a complete overhaul ... our current tax system on the other hand is another story.

I went to the ER a couple of weeks ago because my father in law was having some extreme pain. We walk in and the place was packed out. My father in law was suffering from an impacted bowel, which hurts like hell and was not able to be diagnosed until 4 hours later. In front of him was a long line of sniffles and headaches, none of which were declared emergency situations but because they were there first, they were priority. Behind him came a broken ankle, broken finger, and a young girl suffering an asthma attack. They all had to wait for this line of sniffles to pass.

You pass a policy of nationalized health care and that line grows and the quality of health care will suffer.

If it were to ever fall into place, then people need to continue to have an option. People who choose to should have the option of paying out of pocket for higher quality medical care. Should someone not want to go to a hospital ER, they should have that option.

I'm a firm believer in the theory of social darwinism, and I don't believe there is anything that can be done to make that go away. The classes separate like oil and water. Those who can afford should not have to suffer for those who can't and that's the long and short of it.

actually to be honest waiting times in hospital are comparable between the two systems and so are wages. Unless of course you're a greedy bastard and want to drive 4 cars, fuck supermodels, and live in a 3 million dollar house. If you work hard you get paid as a doctor no matter system you're in. I know because I have talked to several area doctors when I was writing a paper for my Poli Sci class about health care reform and trust me thoughs guys get paid mucho dollars.

For example:

recent (like 7 months out) med student graduate was driving a brand new audi worth 90K, had a smoking hot wife, lived in a million dollar condo, and made a ton of money (who wouldn't go any deeper into how much he made). Saying you want more than that is ridiculous.

and bama:

there's is going to be a long bloody civil war even if you leave in 20 years so whats the point of more young men and women dying for no purpose?

[Bearsbacker]

cooljayhu said:

buffsbacker said:

I can't stand the idea of nationalized health care. As a med student going into the field, knowing that this policy going into effect would cut my pay significantly is reason enough to not like it. I will say though that our current system does need modifications. When an operation costs 10-20x as much here as it does elsewhere in the world, there is a problem ... I had surgery in December to remove a large kidney stone. That surgery cost $19,000. Total costs involved for that little bastard totaled well over $25,000. That's absurd ... so I'm not against a reform, but not a complete overhaul ... our current tax system on the other hand is another story.

I went to the ER a couple of weeks ago because my father in law was having some extreme pain. We walk in and the place was packed out. My father in law was suffering from an impacted bowel, which hurts like hell and was not able to be diagnosed until 4 hours later. In front of him was a long line of sniffles and headaches, none of which were declared emergency situations but because they were there first, they were priority. Behind him came a broken ankle, broken finger, and a young girl suffering an asthma attack. They all had to wait for this line of sniffles to pass.

You pass a policy of nationalized health care and that line grows and the quality of health care will suffer.

If it were to ever fall into place, then people need to continue to have an option. People who choose to should have the option of paying out of pocket for higher quality medical care. Should someone not want to go to a hospital ER, they should have that option.

I'm a firm believer in the theory of social darwinism, and I don't believe there is anything that can be done to make that go away. The classes separate like oil and water. Those who can afford should not have to suffer for those who can't and that's the long and short of it.

actually to be honest waiting times in hospital are comparable between the two systems and so are wages. Unless of course you're a greedy bastard and want to drive 4 cars, fuck supermodels, and live in a 3 million dollar house. If you work hard you get paid as a doctor no matter system you're in. I know because I have talked to several area doctors when I was writing a paper for my Poli Sci class about health care reform and trust me thoughs guys get paid mucho dollars.

For example:

recent (like 7 months out) med student graduate was driving a brand new audi worth 90K, had a smoking hot wife, lived in a million dollar condo, and made a ton of money (who wouldn't go any deeper into how much he made). Saying you want more than that is ridiculous.

From the numbers that I've seen, the average wait time is roughly 30 minutes from door to doctor in America right now and in Canada the average door to doctor visit was over 16 hours in the large cities. That's a big discrepancy ...

With respect to your one interview that you did with a recently graduated med student ... that is irrelevant. Just because someone looks like they have a ton of money does not mean that they have a ton of money ... people like to show off even their if their financial statement doesn't say they should. Who is to say he wasn't simply being irresponsible with his money in buying all that ... and what does the looks of his woman have to do with anything? And funny that he wouldn't reveal how much he made. Brand new grad students are on the low end of the payscales, regardless of the field they enter into.

Considering real world issues, a nationalized health care system sends the already ridiculous malpractice rates even higher due to the number of patients seen and the likelyhood of error and as a result LOWERING the net pay and increasing the already strenuous workload making the pay per hour less.

It's fine that you conducted interviews with a couple of doctors ... stating that they make mucho dollars doesn't back your point up nor does it refute mine. A doctor with years of experience better be making money.

Realize this though ... to take a system out and replace it with one that gives 40 million plus additional people free access to healthcare would be catastrophic. The current status of our system is already in trouble. Doctors are overloaded with patients ... people are sicker than ever before and to add that HUGE burden would not solve our problems.

Ultimately the question is ... where is the sacrifice made? You add all those people and the quality of care can't possibly remain where it is ... it can only go down. It would become a cattle call. Call them in, go over basic diagnoses and then ship them out. Doctors would be overworked ... remember it takes at least 7 years to begin to practice ... so it's not like we could just tag'em and bag'em and throw them into practice.

[JacktheRipper]

cooljay: It's call strategy, we need to be there because of the situation with Iran. Not to mention, the region will hopefully be stable enough by then for the power vaccum that will be Iraq not to throw the entire region into war. Basically, if we pull out now, it's going to be very bad for everyone involved. If we wait, it might not be as bad. That's a risk I'm willing to take. I wish we had never of gone to Iraq, but now that we're there, the only solution is to finish the fight.

[Keeper]

This is slightly off-topic but, is anyone a member of the ISO? I doubt there is, but I figured I'd ask. I've never "joined", just simply because people have such a disdain for socialism, but I go to a lot of events/meetings.

[cooljayhu]

just so you know bears its not free its paid for with tax dollars that should be going back to the people not fighting useless wars and sending people into space.

BTW where did you get your numbers from? 16 hours are you freaking kidding me? I have gone to the emergency room 5 times in my life (broken finger, broken ankle, dislocated wrist, 2 concussions) in a major canadian city (edmonton and area is over a million people which is big for canada) and never even sat in the waiting room! My sister is also a nurse at a hospital and the max wait time for patients during a moderately busy time frame is 15 minutes according to her. Now maybe your talking about Toronto or Vancouver but honestly 16 hours? I highly doubt it. I would love to see your source however (was it fox news?)

[Bearsbacker]

www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/06/11/qc-hospitalovercrowding.html

I know where the money comes from .... the majority of those 40 million americans who would benefit pay a small portion of the total taxes collected that it still isn't justified. The arguement for wars and space isn't needed ... simply your opinion so it doesn't figure into the equation.

Figure this: Canada has a national population of 33 million, with roughly 2000 hospitals, which is 16500 people per hospital. In America, we have between 5700 and 7500 hospitals, depending on who you ask with a population of 300 million, 260 million of which are insured. Right now, there is 1 hospital for every 35000 (more than double that of Canada) people ... add in universal health care and the numbers increase to 40000 people per hospital. Again my point is is that quality of care would fall ... the number of people going into the field would dwindle due to enormous strain ... just because it works in Canada doesn't mean it would work in a country 10 times and large.

Living in Canada and trying to implement a system that works there into America just doens't add up.

[detroitbasketball]

cooljayhu said:

its paid for with tax dollars that should be going back to the people not fighting useless wars

I love how you've never once addressed any of bama's very valid points about why we should stay there now.

[Keeper]

bamarulz2020 said:

cooljay: It's call strategy, we need to be there because of the situation with Iran. Not to mention, the region will hopefully be stable enough by then for the power vaccum that will be Iraq not to throw the entire region into war. Basically, if we pull out now, it's going to be very bad for everyone involved. If we wait, it might not be as bad. That's a risk I'm willing to take. I wish we had never of gone to Iraq, but now that we're there, the only solution is to finish the fight.

If those desired results could be accomplished without the atrocities we are committing and the loss of American lives, then I would agree. The problem is that we are only trying to hold off the fighting (and not succeeding), because war is going to undeniably occur now that we have given Islamic fundamentalists a prime piece of land to call their own. This war has been nothing but another tick in the series of American terrorist attacks on foreign nations. It is better to remove ourselves now, so they can sort it out themselves, because the fact is we're going to have to deal with whoever takes power eventually, and propping up our leaders there will only continue to prolong violence.

The United States has made far too many mistakes in the past administration for a war to break out with Iran, we would become the world enemy. Our economy is a disaster, and involvement in war will only continue to tax it.

[JacktheRipper]

keepereusc said:

bamarulz2020 said:

cooljay: It's call strategy, we need to be there because of the situation with Iran. Not to mention, the region will hopefully be stable enough by then for the power vaccum that will be Iraq not to throw the entire region into war. Basically, if we pull out now, it's going to be very bad for everyone involved. If we wait, it might not be as bad. That's a risk I'm willing to take. I wish we had never of gone to Iraq, but now that we're there, the only solution is to finish the fight.

If those desired results could be accomplished without the atrocities we are committing and the loss of American lives, then I would agree. The problem is that we are only trying to hold off the fighting (and not succeeding), because war is going to undeniably occur now that we have given Islamic fundamentalists a prime piece of land to call their own. This war has been nothing but another tick in the series of American terrorist attacks on foreign nations. It is better to remove ourselves now, so they can sort it out themselves, because the fact is we're going to have to deal with whoever takes power eventually, and propping up our leaders there will only continue to prolong violence.

The United States has made far too many mistakes in the past administration for a war to break out with Iran, we would become the world enemy. Our economy is a disaster, and involvement in war will only continue to tax it.

You forget the point that the violence isn't going to end if America leaves. The Middle East, due to the culture of radical Islam dominating the scene right now, is a powder keg. Iran is going to do something stupid and we will have to go to war with them. They're eventually going to attack Israel IMO and the region will break out into a war that will make WWII look tame. This could very well happen even if America is in Iraq but losing Iraq as both a base and an "ally" would be a huge blow if this happens.

Not to mention the fact we could avoid the power vaccum and huge civil war if we just keep enough troops there. They'll eventually work it out. I mean, there's going to be a civil war, but it wouldn't be the same if it happens twenty years. If it happens now, Iraq would just turn into a puppet state of Iran. We cannot let that happen, because this war, all the loss of life would just be an f'n waste. Iraq would be no better off, probably trying to produce WMDs, under control of our biggest current threat, and would just be another country in the region that hates us. Yeah going there was a mistake, but if you want to see Iraq degrade into a situation that could be much like the Sudan, then pull out. Now isn't the right time. It's that simple.

Edit: The war has nothing to do with our economic problems. It's a financial situation. Subprime lenders end up causing a huge influx of inventory in the housing market, causing prices to crash. Many major investment banks lost a ton of money on this crash and the loan defaults. This is making banks very tight on their lending practices which slows down the economy. Then you know, other businesses are tight for money and have to lay off people and the cycle continues. The war is actually helping the economy, not in the WWII sense, but government contracts are what a business dreams of. The economy sucks, but it sure as hell isn't the war's fault.

[dkgojackets]

but dude the economy is bad AND we are in a war therefore the war must cause the economy to be bad amirite

[Keeper]

War in a post-industrial society does not aide the economy in any way.