tOfficial Gasoline Discussion Thread

[I am a huge CUNT]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnDsFJOnjNI&feature=related

I figured I would start this thread. With all of the stuff going on about gas supply and prices, I figured DC could start letting out some of their thoughts on the issue.

I thought the video above was definitely interesting and a good way to start.

Also, any thoughts on future technologies/cars? I wanna know what happened to the hydrogen car.



-Bama, maybe a sticky?

[Freak93]

We need to find alternative sources of energy and reduce our dependency on oil.

The suggestion of coal is bad. To be honest, I don't want to see areas end up like the area I live in. You drive around and see huge holes from strip mining. Let's not forget the nightmare of hoping you don't become a victim of mine subsidence.

I also live by a nuclear plant. It isn't directly by me, but the risk of that thing having an accident freaks me out. I would hate to see more of them around as well. We have so many people worrying about terrorists, so why give them more targets in the country?

Finding these new sources is key but also moving away from current sources like oil is also a start. If everyone started buying hybrids it would be a bit of a start. I am not saying that there is no need for bigger vehicles like trucks and suv's, but a lot of people having one as their everyday vehicle isn't helping.

Gas prices wouldn't be as noticeable if people weren't stupid with the fuel they use. We all know people who will bitch about gas prices yet go through gas like crazy when they don't need to. I guess what I am getting at is that if people want to complain, look at the way you do things before complaining.

[JacktheRipper]

No one gets the oil problem. Well there are people who get it but they are not in power, because we wouldn't be calling up heads of the oil companies to congress if they did. The price of oil is a two fold problem. One is supply and demand. India and China are sucking up oil at a record rate for both nations, and American/Other consumption has not gone down. Therefore, there is the same supply with more demand and prices go up (consider that price is a piece of information on supply and demand when thinking of this end of things). Secondly, there is major speculation in the oil futures. The price of gas is spiking because hedge funds and the like are buying up futures at a furious pace. The mix of monster speculation and too much demand equals high oil prices. I personally think oil will cool off for a bit, but fully expect to see 200 dollar oil by the time I'm out of college.

Now what can we do to solve the oil problem? Reduce demand? Well price will end up doing that for us. There are better options though, such as using things like coal and nuclear to give us electricity. Not to mention the strides solar is starting to make. That will be the long term answer IMO. There are also ways of converting coal to oil. Guess what, America has coal like the Saudis have oil. There are a lot of other fuels we could be using today. The crazy environmentalists are hurting this. Not to mention the combo of them and the Alaskan government won't let us drill in ANWR. I assure you, the environmental damage would not be that much at all. This isn't mentioning the restrictions on drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. There is still a lot of oil out there, supply isn't a huge problem besides our ability to raise it. Our current supplies aren't going to dwindle at least.

This leads to the question, how does this effect the price of gasoline. Remember that there has been a shutdown on the building of new refineries, leaving us producing more oil, but only being able to produce gasoline at the same pace. Of course, having to pay more for oil = the cost being passed to the consumer.

I do hope there is none of this "oil companies are making record profits wtf?" around here. Oil companies are making a lot of money because they are selling a shit ton of gasoline. That simple, Americans, even with the price crunch, are using more gasoline and oil in general than ever. So, Exxon is selling more and making more money. The profit margins of the oil companies has gone no where in the last few years, sitting steady about .07 to .11 on every dollar of revenue being profit. Compare that to, let's say Microsoft who pulls in like .27 of profit on every dollar of revenue. These companies really aren't at fault, they are playing within the rules of capitalism. If people are willing to spend the money to get something, who's to tell them not to sell it for that. Publicly traded companies have one legal requirement, and that is to make the shareholder's profit. So, they kinda have to turn a profit. If the government were to come in and put on price controls, it would be nothing less than socialism of an industry. That is not a direction I want to see America going in.

The price of gas is due to bad habits, speculation, and a major spike in consumption worldwide recently. It's a situation that there is little we can do but pay the four bucks for gas and wait for the innovation to come in. It's eventually going to be cheaper for other products/fuel sources to come in and be effective. Solar is a great example, there is much work being done to make it cheap enough for the average home. Why? There is a ton of money to be made by having people all over buying this stuff. As Michael Douglas says at the end of Wall Street, "Greed is good." It leads to innovation.

This is killing me in the short term though, having to drop 60-70 bucks a fill up is miserable on someone having to pay for other things like insurance, tuition, and food. I don't have much of a choice though...just deal with it as best as I can. Don't spend as much in other places, change my driving habits to conserve fuel. There are things that can be done to reduce your strain. Instead of bitching, do them. Get a hybrid car (which now I think with 4 dollar gas would end up being cheaper in the long run. This wasn't the case a year ago), carpool, drive slower, drive less. It's just a matter of doing it.

Any other thoughts?

[JacktheRipper]

May 29, 2008 17:07:33 GMT -5 Freak93 said:

We need to find alternative sources of energy and reduce our dependency on oil.

The suggestion of coal is bad. To be honest, I don't want to see areas end up like the area I live in. You drive around and see huge holes from strip mining. Let's not forget the nightmare of hoping you don't become a victim of mine subsidence.

I also live by a nuclear plant. It isn't directly by me, but the risk of that thing having an accident freaks me out. I would hate to see more of them around as well. We have so many people worrying about terrorists, so why give them more targets in the country?

Finding these new sources is key but also moving away from current sources like oil is also a start. If everyone started buying hybrids it would be a bit of a start. I am not saying that there is no need for bigger vehicles like trucks and suv's, but a lot of people having one as their everyday vehicle isn't helping.

Gas prices wouldn't be as noticeable if people weren't stupid with the fuel they use. We all know people who will bitch about gas prices yet go through gas like crazy when they don't need to. I guess what I am getting at is that if people want to complain, look at the way you do things before complaining.

To make a quick response. Coal is good. Taking that stress off the average consumer is a very good thing. It will also provide more jobs for Americans. We won't have to import from the middle east, which would be awesome not to have to depend on those bastards at OPEC. I can't see a downfall to coal besides the environmental types bitching.

Oh and nuclear is safe, efficient, clean power. We should be building nuclear plants left and right IMO.

[I am a huge CUNT]

Bama, agree with everything you said there.

What I want to know, is where is all this hydrogen crap? Wasn't hydrogen supposed to be the next big thing because it gives off nothing but water vapor? Why are we tearing down refineries? Why are we shutting them down and not building new ones?

I don't see why our government complains about supply when there is a shit load of it, we just need to quit being lazy and find it. We have a ton in our own backyard. It's a place called Alaska. Last I checked, that was our own country and would provide a lot of jobs for American workers.

I don't see a problem with nuclear and coal either. Yes, there is risk. But what type of energy doesn't have risk? I think what we will see is prices peak at a certain point, and then drop right back down to a steady rate because people simply won't be able to afford it anymore.

It scares me, because if it does go really high, people are going to get desperate. I would almost hate leaving my car in a parking lot for the fear of siphoning. It's going to be nuts.

On the subject of China and India, they have WW2 technology over there, not to mention 1 billion people, so that is an unbelievable amount of fuel.


I don't know. It's just weird. I have a hard time trusting my government now. I never know if they are telling the truth anymore.

[JacktheRipper]

I'm going to deal with your post point by point Sparty.

May 29, 2008 18:57:13 GMT -5 I am a huge CUNT said:

Bama, agree with everything you said there.

What I want to know, is where is all this hydrogen crap? Wasn't hydrogen supposed to be the next big thing because it gives off nothing but water vapor? Why are we tearing down refineries? Why are we shutting them down and not building new ones?

You're talking about a developing technology. It is going to take awhile to get the kinks out and moreover to have the technology cheap enough to actually produce and sell in a wide manner. I think it'll be the way we drive our grandchildren around.

I don't see why our government complains about supply when there is a shit load of it, we just need to quit being lazy and find it. We have a ton in our own backyard. It's a place called Alaska. Last I checked, that was our own country and would provide a lot of jobs for American workers.

Not to mention all the oil we have in reserve. Legal restrictions are the only reason we're not drilling in Alaska and in the Gulf. If there is more oil, you better believe Cheveron, ConocoPhillips, and Exxon want in on that. Domestic oil is good for the economy, and I really wish we would be doing more to get it.

I don't see a problem with nuclear and coal either. Yes, there is risk. But what type of energy doesn't have risk? I think what we will see is prices peak at a certain point, and then drop right back down to a steady rate because people simply won't be able to afford it anymore.

Right, prices will always peak at some point, but the question is where. We are no where close to a peak on oil simply on people not being able to afford it. I'm suggestings prices like $300 a barrel and $8 a gallon would be getting near that breaking point. That's not what is going to bring gas prices now. The only things that will do it is supply going up or demand going down. Well that and less political stress in oil rich countries and less speculation by traders. Well not to mention a stronger dollar (really weak dollar right now starting to reek havoc, though some would argue it has little effect. I'm not well read enough to say for sure one way or the other).

Oh and coal and nuclear are both well worth the risk and get more and more worth it as gas hurts our economy.

It scares me, because if it does go really high, people are going to get desperate. I would almost hate leaving my car in a parking lot for the fear of siphoning. It's going to be nuts.

On the subject of China and India, they have WW2 technology over there, not to mention 1 billion people, so that is an unbelievable amount of fuel.

Siphoning is already starting to happen much more widespread. Sad state of affairs really.

Yeah but the number of people is deceiving. We still use more oil than both. Most of the people in those countries aren't driving around all over the place I assure you of that. Still they are industrializing and having massive economic expansion. Oil is fueling it, much like it has fueled us.

I don't know. It's just weird. I have a hard time trusting my government now. I never know if they are telling the truth anymore.

When have we ever really be able to trust the government. Did Iraq teach you nothing?

[Freak93]

Well, if they could get the coal in a decent fashion I don't think it would be that bad. The big problem was that people raped the land and left it. Now we have regions where it looks like a damn dump. This area sees a ton of it. If they can get the coal without raping the land, then go for it. But also find a long term solution. Also, find a way not to screw over the working man once you move past coal. This region was screwed once coal declined. It is a bitch to see so much invested in something that should be short term. Basically, investing in finite material

Another thing with coal is that it seems that a tiny group prospers from it while the majority won't directly reap the benefits. While an increase in coal use would mean more jobs and money, how much of that would directly make it to the working man? West Virginia is an area that I look at with coal. Would we be better than that or would coal regions ultimately fall to that standard after a period of time? Also, the human risk in coal needs to be considered. It is a very dangerous profession. We can all recall the mine disasters we have seen recently. If we were to increase our dependency on coal, is it not fair to assume that these accidents would become more common?

I agree with the sun solution to energy. Solar, hydro, and wind energy are all great ways to help with the problem. They limit pollution and are cost efficient when done correctly. There are people who bitch about windmills, but I could suck it up. I would rather look at a windmill then looking out and seeing land decimated in our struggle to fuel our lives.

[JacktheRipper]

Freak, the money always gets to the people. They are paid for their work, hence they get something for it. Giving people jobs, is a good thing. It means more money in the local economy, more spending and what not. It's good for the working people, there's no debate.

Oh and coal is a long term solution. It's not like it is going to run out in twenty years, the stuff could fuel us for hundreds of years. That's not short term. Then you have to weight the environmental risks compared to the human cost of high energy costs. I personally would rather see the land "raped" and people have a better standing of living than the latter. It's a balance though, too much either way is a bad thing.

Oh and again, what about nuclear. That's a very clean, very powerful solution. I wish every power plant in America was a modern nuclear plant. Less plants, much less pollution. It's a great solution, ask France.

[Buzz Killington]

Living near Indian Point (biggest terrorist target in the country, in my oh-so-humble opinion) is not fun. You get messages over the radio about siren testing, and you get to hear about how many safety faults they've found at the plant. Causes you to live in fear of that great equalizer called death. Can sour your opinion on nuclear power.

Also, gas prices are going up everywhere. Doubt it's the government/corporations' fault. It's what, 5 pounds in London?

[Freak93]

See the thing with coal though is how much is actually available? There are times you see relatively high numbers then you have people come out and say how some of it is too risky to get or much too dirty to actually use. If we can get an eco-friendly solution over coal, I say go for it as soon as we can get it.

Then let's say we do get some great solution and we don't need to rely on coal. That leaves us with whole communities invested off the land that becomes useless. It's happened once and the results were not pretty. I would think we could do better now but it is hard to put that much faith in people learning from the past. We never seem to be able to.

The nuclear thing isn't terrible but if terrorism is as much of a risk as the government likes to make it out to be, why risk it? I wouldn't like to see us build these nuclear plants then have to put a ton in to defend them when we get a terrorism scare. Let's say they do get some then, if we have a greater dependence on them, that screws us. I know if they attack any of our energy sources we are screwed, however, the nuclear plant is a 'better' target for the destruction it can bring about. You figure then not only are we at a loss of power, we have quite a shitty mess on our hands.

[JacktheRipper]

May 29, 2008 20:57:31 GMT -5 Buzz Killington said:

Living near Indian Point (biggest terrorist target in the country, in my oh-so-humble opinion) is not fun. You get messages over the radio about siren testing, and you get to hear about how many safety faults they've found at the plant. Causes you to live in fear of that great equalizer called death. Can sour your opinion on nuclear power.

Also, gas prices are going up everywhere. Doubt it's the government/corporations' fault. It's what, 5 pounds in London?

Thank taxes for the 10 dollar gas in England.

Well you don't have to live next to a nuclear plant either. It is clean, efficient energy. We have plenty of open space in America, put it out in the middle of nowhere and the only people living near by will be the workers. Solutions...

[Claytons Crew]

May 29, 2008 20:57:31 GMT -5 Buzz Killington said:

Living near Indian Point (biggest terrorist target in the country, in my oh-so-humble opinion) is not fun. You get messages over the radio about siren testing, and you get to hear about how many safety faults they've found at the plant. Causes you to live in fear of that great equalizer called death. Can sour your opinion on nuclear power.

Also, gas prices are going up everywhere. Doubt it's the government/corporations' fault. It's what, 5 pounds in London?

I live near Turkey Point and a bomb testing site. Every day at 12:30 the whole town shakes when they test the bombs underground. I swear I'm going to end up like The Hills Have Eyes people.

Gas prices are starting to hit $4.00 here. They were at $3.87 last week and now at $3.94. We need a boycott. Start taking the bus.

[JacktheRipper]

May 29, 2008 20:59:51 GMT -5 Freak93 said:

See the thing with coal though is how much is actually available? There are times you see relatively high numbers then you have people come out and say how some of it is too risky to get or much too dirty to actually use. If we can get an eco-friendly solution over coal, I say go for it as soon as we can get it.

Then let's say we do get some great solution and we don't need to rely on coal. That leaves us with whole communities invested off the land that becomes useless. It's happened once and the results were not pretty. I would think we could do better now but it is hard to put that much faith in people learning from the past. We never seem to be able to.

The nuclear thing isn't terrible but if terrorism is as much of a risk as the government likes to make it out to be, why risk it? I wouldn't like to see us build these nuclear plants then have to put a ton in to defend them when we get a terrorism scare. Let's say they do get some then, if we have a greater dependence on them, that screws us. I know if they attack any of our energy sources we are screwed, however, the nuclear plant is a 'better' target for the destruction it can bring about. You figure then not only are we at a loss of power, we have quite a shitty mess on our hands.

*Double Post*

Terrorism isn't the great threat the government makes it out to be. Also, if they get our power supply, it doesn't matter what kind of fuel it is. All they have to do is take out one of our main plants and a whole region of the country is gone as it stands today. An attack on a nuclear plant would be pretty horrific, no doubt. There are way to work around that though. Put the reactors deep underground, where something like driving a bomb upto the building or crashing a plane into it wouldn't damage the nuclear fuel. Also doing this helps to keep a meltdown contained. You know there is risk in a nuclear plant and build accordingly.

Next off, again, we have more coal than the middle east has oil. That's a ton of coal, mind boggling. Doesn't matter if some of it is unsable, even 50% would fuel us for over 100 years easy. If given the choice to work in a coal mine, with OSHA standards (very strict guidelines I promise), or work some other industry job for the same wage but have to pay double in energy costs what do you pick? There might be some extra danger, but most likely worth the extra risk to have a lot more expendable income.

[detroitbasketball]

Boycotting won't do much of anything.

[Freak93]

Well I don't feel terrorism is as much of a threat either. However, when you have some of the losers we see in government, it would suck to see money consumed by defense programs that really isn't necessary.

As for the coal thing, I see what you are saying. However, how many places would meet the OSHA standards? I know how strict they are, and companies will overlook them and try and get away from them to save money. Also the thing with coal is that it will get to a point where we are screwed. It just brings the question of why keep putting it off? I can get using coal while we search for an answer that is more sensible. The thing is, will we actively do it? I don't want to see a situation where say we have a large supply and keep overlooking the energy problem because of that supply. Let's just get rid of the problem now and be done with it.

Also, a boycott won't help much at all.

[JacktheRipper]

Freak, my summer job makes me work in industry. They follow OSHA standards, because OSHA comes in and inspects once a year. To follow their standards, you have to keep a paper trail of everything. You have to have a work permit for any job performed. You have to wear the right PPE when you go in anywhere. Waste has to be labeled, even if it's water. They come in with surprise inspections every year. If you don't follow them, they shut you down. There is no such thing as not following OSHA standards and staying in business. I promise.

[JacktheRipper]

Bump....I'm surprised there isn't more takling about this.

[Just Blaze]

All i can say about gas is that my wallet is suffering and I do my best to conserve it.....

I woudl ride a bike but my school is too far away from my hosue and the public transit system is horrible here in Tampa.

[bearcat]

articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/CheapGasInMissouri.aspx

A good article on why gas is cheapest here in Missouri...

I was in Cape Cod for the past week or so, and gas is insanely priced up there..some places out on the Cape were around $4.20 per.

[Keeper]

We're at about $4.20 right now...