Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 3:27:07 GMT -5
Discuss.
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Post by dkgojackets on Mar 2, 2008 3:31:24 GMT -5
Second best offensive shortstop in the league, second or third worst defensive shortstop.
He's overrated in the sense that he isn't one of the greatest ever and the whole intangible argument is a bunch of shit, but he's still one of the five best shortstops in the game.
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TJFOR3
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Post by TJFOR3 on Mar 2, 2008 9:36:41 GMT -5
I'm a Red Sox fan. He is a great player and actually not a classless tool like a lot of guys. I think he might be overrated a little bit, but like David said, he's still one of the best.
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McGahee
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Post by McGahee on Mar 2, 2008 10:33:03 GMT -5
He got his hype from his success in the playoffs early in his career, and by maintaining decent numbers and his looks, he remains a prominent figure in baseball today...
He's no longer considered in that upper echelon of SS's, with Reyes, Rollins, and Ramirez, but in that 2nd tier with Tejada and a couple others...
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Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 11:37:48 GMT -5
Why do you put Reyes in that class?
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Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 11:58:01 GMT -5
We'll look at the 2007 statistics because well, everyone seemed to have their best year offensively yet or at least one of their best recent years save Reyes who in 2006 had a .300 AVG, 19 homers, and 81 RBI's but his OBP was the same as last season.
Derek Jeter
.322, 12 homers, 73 RBI's, 102 runs, .388 OBP. (Not to mention a 2nd place finish with a .343 average and 97 RBI's in 2006).
18 errors, .970 FA.
Jose Reyes
.280, 12 homers, 57 RBI's, 119 runs, .354 OBP.
12 errors, .982 FA.
Jimmy Rollins
.296, 30 homers, 94 RBI's, 139 runs, .344 OBP. (MVP)
11 errors, .985 FA.
Hanley Ramirez
.332, 29 homers, 81 RBI's, 125 runs, .386 OBP.
24 errors, .963 FA (and this is looking pretty consistent).
That's just last season, Jeter's 2006 season was great and he's consistently well over .300 while all these guys except Hanley were under .300. He has a better OBP than all of them and a worse yet than most of his years but still pretty average only gave him a few more errors than Reyes and Rollins in the field. Is it the stolen bases for Reyes that puts him over? Because that clearly doesn't mean much. He has WAY more steals than Jeter and yet only got to home plate 17 more times than Jeter. And despite those 70-some steals, Jeter still has two more total bases than Reyes.
If you're going to put Reyes in the top echelon you gotta put Jeter there too, offensively and defensively. Hanley is terrible in the field so what makes him belong there either?
Had to bring this topic up because I was shocked at how people were trying to say Jeter was nowhere near the top all-time or ever, which is a joke. And Julio Lugo is nowhere near Jeter, stupid Red Sox fans.
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McGahee
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Post by McGahee on Mar 2, 2008 13:04:58 GMT -5
Defending Reyes: Jeter's run total is clearly inflated by the fact that he has the AL All-Star team hitting behind him. Sure, Reyes did have Wright and Beltran, but Delgado's .250 average and the rest of that offense certainly wouldn't have allowed Jeter to get the same amount of runs. Looking at offensive numbers, besides the obvious difference in steals, Jeter clearly beats him. Reyes had substantially lower numbers this season than last season. Looking at both player's totals from last year, asides from the dozen RBIs and the huge difference in batting average, Reyes's numbers were right there, with more triples, homeruns, and steals. I think the reason Reyes is deemed so valuable is a) because there's really not much more you could ask for in a lead-off man and b) He's doing this at a relatively young age. What he did at 22 and 23 Jeter didn't come close to until a couple years later in his career.
Defending Rollins: This one's fairly simple. Advantage Jeter in BA and OBP, but Rollins has great power that gives him an advantage in OPS. He's great defensively and steals more bases (with an astoundingly low CS%). There's still plenty of things he needs to work on in terms of being a lead-off hitter, but I'm not sure if Jeter has ever had a season as productive as J-Roll's last season.
Defending Hanley: You mention Hanley's fielding, but fail to realize that at this point in his career, he's right where Jeter was. Jeter when he first entered the league was a 20-error a season guy as well, and I really would be shocked if he doesn't improve in his next 10 seasons as Jeter does. Jeter barely edged him out in terms of OBP, but gets destroyed by Hanley's insane OPS.
Maybe Reyes isn't there yet, but I think in season or two it will be substantially obvious how special of a player he is.
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Chief Bstn
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Post by Chief Bstn on Mar 2, 2008 13:05:31 GMT -5
Home runs and RBI don't matter for a leadoff batter. That should be thrown out.
No one is doubting Jeter offensively. He hits the ball better than almost anyone, the only thing is he's bad in the field. He'll make the highlight reel with some plays, but he's mediocre at the position.
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Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 13:11:38 GMT -5
Defending Reyes: Jeter's run total is clearly inflated by the fact that he has the AL All-Star team hitting behind him. Sure, Reyes did have Wright and Beltran, but Delgado's .250 average and the rest of that offense certainly wouldn't have allowed Jeter to get the same amount of runs. Jeter averaged 120 runs a season with a cast of nobodies during the World Series years. That's better than he's done with the All-Stars behind him so I beg to differ with that. |
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Chief Bstn
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Post by Chief Bstn on Mar 2, 2008 13:20:18 GMT -5
Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams and Tino Martinez..bunch of nobodies? Each had 110+ RBI in'98.
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Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 13:40:24 GMT -5
Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams and Tino Martinez..bunch of nobodies? Each had 110+ RBI in'98. In a sense? Yea they really were. They were my favorite players on those teams but to everyone else, they certainly weren't better than what a lot of teams had, at least according to most at the time and they certainly weren't Abreu, A-Rod, Giambi, Matsui, and Posada in terms of power. If I get trade, I would. Paulie, Bernie, and Tino knew how to play but like I said they were always very looked over in comparison to those guys I just listed. Tino was a 2-time All-Star, ridiculous. |
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Post by detroitbasketball on Mar 2, 2008 13:45:25 GMT -5
Paul O'Neill won a batting title and was named to the ASG 5 times. I'd take him out of the "nobody" discussion.
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JackTheRipper
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Post by JackTheRipper on Mar 2, 2008 14:22:31 GMT -5
Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams and Tino Martinez..bunch of nobodies? Each had 110+ RBI in'98. In a sense? Yea they really were. They were my favorite players on those teams but to everyone else, they certainly weren't better than what a lot of teams had, at least according to most at the time and they certainly weren't Abreu, A-Rod, Giambi, Matsui, and Posada in terms of power. If I get trade, I would. Paulie, Bernie, and Tino knew how to play but like I said they were always very looked over in comparison to those guys I just listed. Tino was a 2-time All-Star, ridiculous. In what sense? O'Neill was a borderline HOFer and Bernie is probably a HOFer as well. Nobodies don't get HOF talk. |
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Post by dkgojackets on Mar 2, 2008 15:23:20 GMT -5
He got his hype from his success in the playoffs early in his career, and by maintaining decent numbers and his looks, he remains a prominent figure in baseball today... He's no longer considered in that upper echelon of SS's, with Reyes, Rollins, and Ramirez, but in that 2nd tier with Tejada and a couple others... He doesn't just maintain "decent" numbers. He had a .388 OBP and .452 SLG last year, both of which are consistent to his career averages. 2006 was his second best season ever. The only SS better than him at the plate is Hanley, but Jeter doesn't get pwned a bad as the rest of the group. Only stupid people don't consider him in the upper echelon of SS. |
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Post by dkgojackets on Mar 2, 2008 15:34:56 GMT -5
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Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 16:00:31 GMT -5
In what sense? O'Neill was a borderline HOFer and Bernie is probably a HOFer as well. Nobodies don't get HOF talk. Neither of them have or will be in talks for the the HOF. |
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Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 16:06:32 GMT -5
At this point, with Hanley still be pretty terrible in the field, like this: 1. Jimmy Rollins 2. Derek Jeter 3. Hanley Ramirez 4. Jose Reyes 5. Orlando Cabrera |
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Post by dkgojackets on Mar 2, 2008 16:16:53 GMT -5
At this point, with Hanley still be pretty terrible in the field, like this: 1. Jimmy Rollins 2. Derek Jeter 3. Hanley Ramirez 4. Jose Reyes 5. Orlando Cabrera I don't think you realize how much better Hanley is at the plate than every other SS. Jeter is terrible in the field as well, and Rollins is just above average. No way Rollins is first, his on-base is awful. |
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Loki
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Post by Loki on Mar 2, 2008 17:11:03 GMT -5
26 errors or whatever it is, keeps him off the top for me. Rollins is good at the plate and in the field and Jeter is pretty good at the plate and just below average in the field and he's been doing what he does for years now while we've seen two seasons out of Hanley. Think that is more than a fair reason to put Rollins at the top, Jeter at second, and Hanley at third, all unquestionably for me. The rest are still a bit off.
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Chief Bstn
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Post by Chief Bstn on Mar 2, 2008 17:21:08 GMT -5
I'm still stunned with the nobodies statement.
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