Derek Jeter: Overrated?

[I am a huge CUNT]

Jeter plays pretty much everyday, and has a good bat. Is he the best fielder in the league? No.

But he is also getting old. He can't keep up with guys like Ramirez anymore, who not to mention have great speed.

Saying Jeter is overrated is ridiculous.

[dkgojackets]

loki1230 said:

26 errors or whatever it is, keeps him off the top for me.

A difference in 10 errors or whatever nowhere near makes up for the difference in offensive production. Hanley blows out everyone.

Rollins is good at the plate and in the field

Good at the plate and above average in the field.

and Jeter is pretty good at the plate and just below average in the field

Great at the plate and terrible in the field.

and he's been doing what he does for years now while we've seen two seasons out of Hanley. Think that is more than a fair reason to put Rollins at the top, Jeter at second, and Hanley at third, all unquestionably for me. The rest are still a bit off.

I'm not sure which one you are saying has been doing it for years now, but Rollins career averages are a .331 OBP (awful for a top of the order hitter) and .441 SLG, with a 98 OPS+. Among major leaguers, he is below average offensively. Jeter has a career 122 OPS+, which is very good, and is very consistent with what he's done the past couple years. Hanley had a 145 OPS+ last season, his second year in the bigs. In their combined 19 seasons, Jeter and Rollins haven't had a higher SLG than Hanley did last year.

If you want to take the player with the longest career go ahead. I prefer the best player right now.

[Loki]

Hanley is not the best SHORTSTOP, it's that simple. He's a beast offensively but he is not the best shortstop. It's not like he had a monstrous two seasons to really overlook how terrible he is defensively. 14 more errors than Rollins (who had 12) and 8 more than Jeter (who had 18) totally makes a difference. That's more than double the amount of people on base that shouldn't have compared to Rollins and almost a 33% than Jeter. How many of those 26 could've been turned into runs?

If he was a DH, he's one of the best in the league, but he's not and his defense clearly hurts his team.

[Loki]

notrelame said:

I'm still stunned with the nobodies statement.

I think you're not understanding how I meant it. Those three guys are way overlooked and always were throughout their career despite the fact that Tino basically averaged 30 homers a season, Paul O'Neill was one of the greatest at the plate to force pitchers to make pitches, and Bernie Williams was always ignored for how good he really was, period. I, as a Yankee fan, knew how good they were but there were plenty of other "stars" put over them. My point was in comparison to what people consider an "All-Star" line-up, of which Jeter didn't have back in the day when he was scoring runs like he does now.

[dkgojackets]

loki1230 said:

Hanley is not the best SHORTSTOP, it's that simple. He's a beast offensively but he is not the best shortstop. It's not like he had a monstrous two seasons to really overlook how terrible he is defensively. 14 more errors than Rollins (who had 12) and 8 more than Jeter (who had 18) totally makes a difference. That's more than double the amount of people on base that shouldn't have compared to Rollins and almost a 33% than Jeter. How many of those 26 could've been turned into runs?

If he was a DH, he's one of the best in the league, but he's not and his defense clearly hurts his team.

Actually he did have a monstrous season last year. He led all other shortstops by 23 runs of VORP. Even if all of those errors (which is the stupidest way to measure fielding, but it's what you want to use) turned into runs (which they didn't), he beats out Rollins by 9 runs of value and Jeter by 30.

[Loki]

Well then, I guess my list is just opinion then ain't it? I just don't feel like looking for more statistics, .

[dkgojackets]

loki1230 said:

Well then, I guess my list is just opinion then ain't it? I just don't feel like looking for more statistics, .

You can look, but it's tough to find any which support something so wrong.

Believe it or not, there are elite baseball players outside of the northeast. I know this comes as a shock to you and the espn community, but it's true.

[Loki]

david said:

loki1230 said:

Well then, I guess my list is just opinion then ain't it? I just don't feel like looking for more statistics, .

You can look, but it's tough to find any which support something so wrong.

Believe it or not, there are elite baseball players outside of the northeast. I know this comes as a shock to you and the espn community, but it's true.

Thanks for that one, I never realized that. .

Still don't think he's a better SHORTSTOP than they are, just has beastly offensive numbers, I wasn't submitting to your points because I didn't feel like looking for statistics, just said I didn't want to look anymore and what I felt was what I felt.

It's not our fault the good players don't wanna play for those cheap ass owners claiming to not have money when they know they do.

[dkgojackets]

I guess it depends on how you define "best shortstop."

Personally, I'm looking for the player who plays the position between second and third base and contributes the most overall value when you combine his offensive and defensive production. You must be looking for something else.

[Loki]

Looking for someone who can contribute both at the plate AND in the field and he can't do that. By your logic, David Ortiz would've been up there with the first basemen when he still played there because he had great offensive numbers and I'm almost positive he's not anywhere near the top of that list, same with A-Rod who certainly isn't the best third baseman. I understand that their offensive statistics make them great and if you look at them the way you are, it can make them one of the best if not the best, but if someone is great at the bat but sucks in the field, they can't be the best at their position when there is someone close at bat and much better in the field as Rollins is.

[Chief Bstn]

David Ortiz isn't a first baseman. He's listed almost everywhere as a DH. That argument is void.

[dkgojackets]

loki1230 said:

Looking for someone who can contribute both at the plate AND in the field and he can't do that. By your logic, David Ortiz would've been up there with the first basemen when he still played there because he had great offensive numbers and I'm almost positive he's not anywhere near the top of that list, same with A-Rod who certainly isn't the best third baseman. I understand that their offensive statistics make them great and if you look at them the way you are, it can make them one of the best if not the best, but if someone is great at the bat but sucks in the field, they can't be the best at their position when there is someone close at bat and much better in the field as Rollins is.

Rollins isn't close at bat.

Who would you rather have, a shortstop who contributes 90 runs on offense and costs his team 8 runs on defense, or a shortstop who contributes 66 runs on offense and contributes 8 runs on defense?

I want the first guy. Your argument sounds like you want the second guy because he is a more "well-rounded" player.

[dkgojackets]

I think I just read that you think Alex Rodriguez is not the best third baseman in baseball. Please tell me what you meant to type because I must be mistaken here.

[Loki]

notrelame said:

David Ortiz isn't a first baseman. He's listed almost everywhere as a DH. That argument is void.

I said WHEN he was.

[TJFOR3]

loki1230 said:

A-Rod who certainly isn't the best third baseman.

LOL.

[Loki]

david said:

I think I just read that you think Alex Rodriguez is not the best third baseman in baseball. Please tell me what you meant to type because I must be mistaken here.

I believe David Wright is a much better all-around THIRD BASEMAN than A-Rod. A-Rod's the better at bat, he's not a third baseman to begin with. Scott Rolen and Adrian Beltre are also better at the position.

Barry Bonds certainly isn't the best LF in the league nor was he won he broke the HR record, do his offensive statistics alone make him the best LF in the league? I'd sure hope not. I think you're missing the point here, I'm talking all-around and Hanley Ramirez is not the best all-around shortstop, to be honest, he looks like he shouldn't even be playing what is considered one of the most important position on the baseball diamond, sorry.

[Loki]

tjfor3 said:

loki1230 said:

A-Rod who certainly isn't the best third baseman.

LOL.

Forget it, you're all misunderstanding this entire thing. OFFENSE does not make someone the best at their position, it can make them the best in the league or whatever, but not at their position. If A-Rod played shortstop, no question, he's the best Shortstop in the league, but he doesn't, he plays third where he commits a lot of errors and just isn't strong all the time at the position, he's still learning.

[Chief Bstn]

Ortiz has pretty much DH'd his entire tenure with Boston..and didn't play much with Minny.

[Loki]

notrelame said:

Ortiz has pretty much DH'd his entire tenure with Boston..and didn't play much with Minny.

Yes but he was considered a 1B for a bit in Boston, especially his first season there.

[TJFOR3]

So then you're saying who's the best defensive player at the position, because I'm pretty sure if anyone that wasn't biased had to take any 3B in the league right now they'd take A-Rod.